79 replies to this topic

[CruciasNZ]

Glad this rat got off that ship already!

Squeak Squeak!

[Authrix]

Well, my complaint with it is that GW drops the price on an already inhibitingly over priced product, and people still defend it. Just because it's not as bad as it once was doesn't make it acceptable.

 

Let's see £15 for ten models. Then we'll talk. SM sized models should not be more than £1 per, IMO.

[CruciasNZ]

Privateer Press charge £30 pounds for 10 models which are the equivalent of a tactical squad. That's considered reasonable in the wargaming community, it's certainly cheaper than a Tac Squad here

[Authrix]

Equivalent numbers wise, but what's the material? The power of the unit(s) involved? I ask because paying £30 for ten guardsmen and £30 for ten Chapter Masters is obviously a very big difference. If you're buying something with the power of a seer council, then that makes a lot of sense. If they're just line troops, then it's a slightly different matter. 

 

You're also buying less figures for a comparably large force in Warmahordes, IIRC.

[CruciasNZ]

Errants are standard troops like Tactical Marines points wise. However they are usually used as hunter killer units to take our warlords (kill warlord and win, regardless of victory conditions). They have both bows and sword n board making them a very flexible, tough unit. They're made from high quality plastic.

[Authrix]

Well, break it down like this:

Tactical squads required in a "normal" SM army list: at least two, likely more.

Errants required: (You'll have to fill in that blank, though I'm guessing 0-1, 0-2 at most).

Say what you will about GW, their sculpts are still good (generally. We'll leave abominations like the MerryGrimnas and the Khornemower out of this), so we can call production value equal. However, seeing as tactical marines generally accomplish jack all in a game and need transports, as opposed to Hunter-killer units for the game's objective (the Warlord)... I'd say the errants are far more fairly priced. Although £30 for ten models is pretty steep, no matter how you cut it. But then, so is £20 for five.

[JC 042]

When I played Mexican Marines Crimson Fists, I had no Tactical Squads, I instead had 20 scouts (plus that scout sergeant dude), 20 Sternguard, Pedro Kantor, 3 Drop Pods, a Land Speeder Storm, 5 Assault Terminators, a Vindicator, a Whirlwind, a Venerable Dreadnought, and Lysander (paining Crimson Fist style). I would mix it up between Dreadnought and Terminators but that was basically my army for 5th Ed.

 

I had some other stuff I stopped using which later became Blood Angels.

Edited by JC 042, 20 August 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Authrix]

Yeah, I realise there are certain armies that use scouts as troops - I believe Cru's Raven Guard use/d scout squads. My Deathwing use Terminators/Scouts. Most SM armies use Tac squads though.

[JC 042]

Yeah, I realise there are certain armies that use scouts as troops - I believe Cru's Raven Guard use/d scout squads. My Deathwing use Terminators/Scouts. Most SM armies use Tac squads though.

I have one Tactical Squad in my Blood Angels army, but I just used 30 Death Company and 3 DC Dreadnoughts instead.

 

Throw in Astorath, Lemartes, and a Rechlusiarch/Chaplain into each 10 man squad and put everything into 3 Storm Ravens and you have a sad day for the enemy. If you have 1st turn you win (5th ed). You just go flat out with all 3 at the start of the turn giving you a 3+ cover save (or was it 4+?), use power of the machine spirit to shoot your 3 twin linked multi-meltas and fuck your opponents tanks.

 

Then 2nd turn unload everything at point blank range with the rest of the enemies army, using your 3 flying Land Raiders to get your army everywhere this turn and shoot the shit out of everything else, plus 33 shots of bolt/infernous/flame pistols from ground troops, 3 dreads shooting melta/flamer/grapple (=12' missile launcher) and chances you've just wiped out 25% of your opponents army by 2nd turn Shooting Phase.

 

Now for the 2nd turn assault phase... Let me simplify it for you. 1 Death Company: 2 attacks base, +1 melee weapons, +1 charge=4 attacks. At WS:5, STR:5, re rolling hits AND wounds, and that's for 15 of them. The other 15 are 3 hammers, 3 fists, and 9 power weapons... Thats 60 attacks rerolling hits and wounds on an average need of 3 to hit and 3 to wound. Another 36 of those ignore armour saves. And another 18 of those wounds on 2+ causing instant death to most things... Then there's Astorath, Lemartes, and a Rechlusiarch doing stuff as well... Not to mention 3 Dreadnoughts which are certain to = the death of any 3 units/vehicles as well, either that same turn or at least by the end of the game.

 

By the time the enemy starts their second turn and if they still have more than 25% of their troops left alive+not in combat then they're doing very well at this point...

 

EDIT: This is all 5th Ed speeking. Oh yeah, Multi charging with 11 models so you can grab 2-3 units in one combat is also pretty good. Bear in mind DC have Feel No Pain so unless its an Assault Squad+ Assault Terminators with and independent character or 2 you're charging you're gonna win.

 

EDIT#2: got the numbers wrong the first time, its even more powerful...

Edited by JC 042, 20 August 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Authrix]

Yes, that's very killy.

 

But it doesn't address the point that the average Space Marine player and army will usually contain at least two if not more tactical squads.

[JC 042]

But it doesn't address the point that the average Space Marine player and army will usually contain at least two if not more tactical squads.

Yeah, the pricing is way too over top imo, I miss the days when it was £20 for a 10 man tact... and the neckbeards miss the days when it was £10. It's the 3rd main reason I gave up on it... (1st: rules/game getting worse and worse each year. 2nd: too many dickmoves by their legal team...).

 

I reckon it will reach the point (if it hasnt already) that their main source of revenue of little kids begging parents for money to play the game dries up, as right now parents would rather buy them a dozen expensive video games rather than an expensive shoe box filled with plastic their kid carries round with them...

Edited by JC 042, 20 August 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Authrix]

Currently, there's two major sources of sales income for GW: the kids (the whole two birthdays and a christmas thing) and the guys that are still hanging on.

They're burning up both of those pretty damn fast.

[An_A10_Pilot]

It has already largely dried up. It's far to expensive for even the starter kit. If you look at the numbers their financial trend is going to be negative profits in about 4 years at current trend. But I'm betting it will fall like a millstone and go from a -5% to -8% and so on.

In shortaye GW can pull their head out of their asses, but I find it unlikely.

[JC 042]

It has already largely dried up. It's far to expensive for even the starter kit. If you look at the numbers their financial trend is going to be negative profits in about 4 years at current trend. But I'm betting it will fall like a millstone and go from a -5% to -8% and so on.

Well they're already announcing a profit loss this year. My bet they will put more emphasis on Black Library and the gaming industry to make up for it.

[ebonybrotherhood]

I have enough models to make a solid 2000 (most likely quite a bit more) point list, and I don't think I will be buying any more models for a very long time, due to the high costs of models. Because I am still young enough to get birthday and Christmas stuff, I still have the option to ask for 40k stuff, but I don't, because its not worth it, knowing I could get much better if I asked for something else for the same cost.

[JC 042]

I have enough models to make a solid 2000 (most likely quite a bit more) point list, 

I could probably get up to 6,000 to 10,000 maybe. I have no idea given the current rule set.

 

I just cant afford everything else; the books, paints, tools, etc.

 

If the paints and tools were a third of the price they are now (as what they should be imo) then I would. Probably even make some money selling painted models as I'm pretty good at it.

[ebonybrotherhood]

It just annoys me really, about how stupid GW is, now that their starting to lose money and going 'Oh no, why would such a thing ever happen? Our Fans are betraying us!'. But all they have to do to start raking in money is lower their prices. Not even to the original £10 for 10 tacticals. Like JC said, even £20 is good enough.

 

But, this most likely will not happen. My guess is that they will raise their prices again, thinking that will somehow get them more money.

TLDR: inb4 £50 for 10 tactical squad.

[Authrix]

It just annoys me really, about how stupid GW is, now that their starting to lose money and going 'Oh no, why would such a thing ever happen? Our Fans are betraying us!'.

GW's mindset at this point is: "We've lost loads of money to CHS lawsuits, better prepare the golden parachutes." Kirby's gonna ride the dividends down until GW crashes.

 

Remember, they don't do market research, so they don't think anyone's betraying them; we were always their enemies. "Two Birthdays and a Christmas". They don't think we stick around, and they're right. We move on to better games. Moreover, they don't want us to stick around.

 

I don't know why. They either want all the money or none of it I guess.

 

I agree about £50 for Tac squads, if they don't reach a critical mass and plummet first. I agree with Pilot in that we'll see that decline very soon - I'm calling it at 2016. This time in 2016 GW will either have crashed or be nose diving, if things don't change.

[JC 042]

I agree about £50 for Tac squads, if they don't reach a critical mass and plummet first. I agree with Pilot in that we'll see that decline very soon - I'm calling it at 2016. This time in 2016 GW will either have crashed or be nose diving, if things don't change.

EA has been a complete fucking douche bag of company and there's no sign of them dying. Games Workshop will find a way to make money and still be assholes. 

[An_A10_Pilot]

Well the thing about EA is that while they are deniably evil, they do have some brain cells floating around. Plus the thing about EA is that they don't actually make content. They publish it. So they are very good at finding stuff that makes money and sucking it drier than a witches *CENSORED*.

They also do market research and have made some good hires lately, which is why they didn't make them the winner of the golden shit.

But EA is still the second largest direct avatar of greed on this plantet. Not excusing them, just say saying that they are smart enough to sometimes respond.