68 replies to this topic

[Prosperan Son]

Indeed. This is a forum for warhammer and gaming Enthusiast. Read that sentence very carefully, A FORUM. Not an Empire. The Moderators and Administrators do not plot against anyone nor do they play favorites. This isn't a place for you to troll and flame others, the very habit is destructive and threatens the site.

The Admins do everything for this site without receiving so much as a thank you so that the members of the Site can enjoy themselves and converse, not argue and troll one another. Yet Gerhart displayed a blatant disregard for any of the rules and only went on mock the Administrators whenever they sent him a warning. Yes, Gerhart was a founding member of the site and maybe that is why the Admins endured 4 months of trolling, flaming, disrespect, and arguing just for him, and several of his members, in hopes that he would clean up his act. But the fact of the matter is that he didn't and these are the consequences.

Every Forum needs structure, organizations, and rules. If you break those rules there are consequences. We discussed the entire matter for several days, none of the inner council took any pleasure in making the decision, but it was one that had to be made. The Entire Site will be better for it now. Like any member of a clan, you will defend your leader and his actions, and for that we applaud your loyalty, but if you feel like this site will collapse because of what you see as Double Standards and favoritism instead of common sense, if you feel like this is a sinking ship, then you can take your leave.

[Corman2030]

Keiya, you are Rad! Thank you, I am now cool There is only one direction to move from here amd that is forward. The Crimson Fists will continue to have a presence here for the love of the game and for the few relationships that are still healthy. LOL

[Sammael]

Well, I'd like to thank most of those who posted in response to me for proving my point and not realising it. Carry on.

[Keiya]

Well, I'd like to thank most of those who posted in response to me for proving my point and not realising it. Carry on.

Brother Sammael - if you feel there is a double standard then please do bring it forth to the council members who made this outcome a reality - but please do not forget your stance. You are an acting officer of the chapter and per the presence on these forums now, the responsibility falls to you to set the standard for your chapter both as a brother and as a standing of authority. For these embers to be stomped out and kept from spreading into a volatile state it is up to you to guide now. Outside of the site may be different, but from here on you are who we will turn to in response to other chapters.

Give direction. Give leadership. Though you may not agree with the outcome you now wear a mantle of responsibility that you must acknowledge with pride. What is best for your men is up to your chapter - but for the betterment of the community we need to ensure that these embers are not ignited. I do humbly request your assistance in this.

[SeperateTitan]

I see the winds in here, so much turbulance.The fence swaying this way and that way. If you will a note from the middle.

Sometimes you must fallow to lead.

Also when it is not your block.Dont get cought on the corner.

[CruciasNZ]

Well I do know there are a few people in the community that would report a post just to be a henderance against the Crimson Fist, I want to make sure that with Gerhart gone, we won't be attacked in any way.

The action to remove Gerhart was based on his actions and his alone. If other members decide to follow his lead regarding poor conduct on the forums then they too shall end up being banned through the warning system or via Council. All other Fists are innocent bystanders in this debacle and any unwarranted persecution should be reported immediately so it can be investigated and stomped out.

As moderators the get the priv/curse of having to trawl through our junk posts when complaints are made so its easy to spot where the problem truly lies in case of false accusations.

Everything major that's reported will go to the inner council, so it will be thoroughly reviewed by a dozen people, so don't worry everything's gonna be considered and debated, there wont be any wrongly accused.

After the awkward lumbering through the Dernian Heresy we decided it was easier dealing with these things by committee. Almost all major decisions (for example banning and rules) now run through the Inner Council. Makes it a little slower, but effectively negates the risk of unjustified action.

[Domine Nox]

I find this thread very interesting. It is very informative and well said. I do find some points of interest though. First of all as I recall Gerhart was one of the founding members of this site. One who sought to get away from what Graia was and make something new. No I am not saying that his position as a founding member grants him immunity or exemption, merely reaffirming that he is in essence a founding father of the site. In addition Gerhart was also, and up until this moment still was the most avid recruiter for the website. I am sure many of you on GW, not just Crimson Fists, were told about the site by Gerhart when he encountered you in game.

Now onto what has evolved since the initial statement.

Im sure if most of the trolling, flaming, and baiting wasnt censored then NO ONE besides the trolls would want to be here. People come here to play games and have fun, not to observe or be insulted by endless pitty arguments and flame wars.

What about everything else? Who decides what is acceptable? I'm sure if I used the 7 things you can't say on television (Though I think the list is longer now) Many of those things would not be censored by the site. But some things are. Now pornography I think the community can agree as a whole would have no place, but what about the other aspects of censorship? Was their a council vote on that? Why can I type shit, but not certain other words? Censorship is not solely directed at the trolls and flamers.

As to petty arguments and flame wars. They are inevitable. You can do as much damage control as you like, but this is the internet. To allow people on the internet to post invites antagonistic behavior, both well and ill intentioned.

Case in point a quick search of Pony on Gothic Wars. Is it a joke? Yes. Does Nosk laugh with it? Yes, but that is also trolling.

In fact, from Wikipedia..

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

By the by the book definition, just about everyone on this site is a troll. Most of you are usually quite proud of your efforts to derail a thread, and have posted as such. JC your name in particular springs to mind on that one.

In fact if flaming is so bad, judging by the vaults of the Excommunicate Traitoris many people should be reviewed.

Now I also read this.

Gerhart stopped trolling because he knew something was coming his way as he could tell from reading the moderator logs that all the threads he trolled in was moved to be reviewed by the inner council.

Hunh? So as he's going to the electric chair he starts acting nice? If he knew his head was on the block why would he care? He'd ramp up his efforts to go out with a bang. I do not see any evidence of Gerhart's personality that would make him go "Oh no, I might get in trouble." So if his 'trolling' as everyone is putting it, stopped. Then that was it, it stopped. Most likely because he stopped coming on this site that much in the first place.

Continuing my breakdown of facts I see posted.

Nearly the entire site has considered and even reported his actions as trolling.

So, enough people on the same bandwagon denotes fact? So if most of the community decided that a certain race of people shouldn't be here, and reported members of that race as trolling, they would banned? I like to think that whoever looks over matters is not swayed by the majority, but by what is right and just. Not saying that either side is right or wrong in this, just making a point. Also considering a large portion of the site are Crimson Fists or inactive, I am curious what constitutes "nearly the entire site."

In my opinion, Gothic Wars only gets stronger by weeding out the people that only want to cause problems.This is a large community of chapters that enjoy playing Space Marines and other games.

Actually it's a moderate sized community, one originally founded around a less than popular game. So by 'weeding' out people because some do not appreciate what they say is in essence handicapping the community. Will the Fists really be as active if their leader's rep is "You're not welcome here?" And if you guys do still want to play games with Gerhart... where does banning get you?

but if you feel like this site will collapse because of what you see as Double Standards and favoritism instead of common sense, if you feel like this is a sinking ship, then you can take your leave.

Let me take this in two steps. So if anyone feels that the site will fail because of double standards or favoritism and not common sense. I should leave. And if I feel the site is failing. I should leave. So the stance of this post is... agree or GTFO? I think some Austrian dude had that attitude a few decades ago.

if you feel there is a double standard then please do bring it forth to the council members who made this outcome a reality - but please do not forget your stance. You are an acting officer of the chapter and per the presence on these forums now, the responsibility falls to you to set the standard for your chapter both as a brother and as a standing of authority.

If Sammael feels there is a line of corruption (not saying there is or isn't) then taking it to those he believes are corrupt is rather counter intuitive. In addition the banning of his factions leader, not the removal of, just the banning, does not move the responsibility to him. It just shows how easily he can be banned. What motivation would the Fists have to step up? They like and respect Gerhart and I forsee this action creating a huge rift by all those that stand behind him.

To sum up. You made your decision. You stand by your decision. That is well and fine. But to think that you have cut out a cancer from your midst I think you are very much mistaken. I believe that this is only the tip of the iceberg and the resulting fallout will spiral much more than anticipated. Again my words are not meant as an accusation, nor of taking either side. I just think that this may create problems that might have been avoided if the issues that were there had been addressed, come together and a middle ground found.

/End

[Sammael]

Nox speaks the truth. He should be careful, that shit gets you banned.

[Bloodbone]

Valid points have been made by Nox I believe.

[CotW]

I'll be brief on this one. Honestly a lot of what Gerhart said over the last year I have agreed with. True he pushed the odd button a little harder than needed but nothing too over the top that I saw. If anything he had more issues come up simply due to volume of posts.

Was the behaviour acceptable? I guess not but I have never been offended by his actions even when I thought he was wrong or taking things too far. I'll stand by the sites decision but leave myself with the agree to disagree opinion of things. Did I see everything the inner council saw? No, but I also don't think a ban was needed.

I'll leave with the same message I always do, we are here to play games and have fun. When that no longer applies you should leave or take a step back. Happy gaming everyone, I'll see you online!

[Corman2030]

That was like watching a composer direct a symphony, thank you for the analysis Nox!

[JACCX023]

well i am wordless....and surprised ive never though of gerhart as a troll/flamer but the opposite he was one of the first and few people on the game who was nice with me am i defending him a bit? yea its called gratitude

I really cannot think he did all those actions behind doors wanna tell me that im ignorant because i dont understand how all of this situation happened? soo be it he never did nothing wrong to me but anyways im not going to tell you that im thankfull that you guys banned him instead just thank you for dealing with the situation i see you guys did what was needed

Indeed this saddens me

As always crimson fist many of you may not care but what ever happens i have your backs bros but keep walking nothing is as grey and dark as every one thinks

[CruciasNZ]

While I don't agree with all your points Nox, it was well written and I thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion in level and detailed way. I won't reply to everything you said because a lot of it was directed at what other people have said since the OP, but I will just reply to a few things I consider demanding of it.

What motivation would the Fists have to step up? They like and respect Gerhart and I forsee this action creating a huge rift by all those that stand behind him.

They don't need to. He has his own site and is perfectly capable of handling his own affairs from there. For organizing their games with chapters and individuals on here, White has already stepped in to fill that communication gap.

As for the rift, it was discussed and decided that simply because he has a lot of friends does not exempt him from the same standards everyone else is accountable to.

Also considering a large portion of the site are Crimson Fists or inactive

Not entirely accurate, they represent ~13% of all Space Marine faction members assuming that every single one of those individuals are still "active". That discounts the other games and unaffiliated members of the site. Coupled with the fact they have most of their dealings offsite further dilutes that claim.

I just think that this may create problems that might have been avoided if the issues that were there had been addressed, come together and a middle ground found.

As we said, we carried on through 4 months of issues before we felt that the diplomacy route was no longer valid. We had hoped that we'd reached a common ground a few times in that span of time, but alas our hopes were proved false each time.

yea its called gratitude

Even though it was decided that we had to ban him for his recent negative actions, we did collectively add a thanks for the past and a well wishing for future to the notification.

[Bloodbone]

Thank you JACCX023 its good to have friends support us.

[SpecSlaughter22]

yep saw it coming. i.have an issue with one thing in particular: the inner counsel..wth was so broken with the original that a more absolute one had to be made? none of us other leaders had any say in this and as far as i can see none of us have had any input on other issues as well. as much as i dont like getting trolled i think this should have came down to gerhart kicking himself automatically by the warning system not a inner circle of gws people who have had issues with him kicking him out. censorship is also a very big issue here because it relies heavily on what admin and mods decide is right and wrong. i entirely agree that gerhart should have went about his posts better but what you see is him posting without fear (or care) what others think of his post and that allowed him to put his points across freely. honestly what was so bad about him? dern i could probably understand because of site recruitment but gerhart was kicked purely because of what he posted. anywho this is how i feel about this situation and i dont think banning gerhart made anything better.

[CruciasNZ]

ywth was so broken with the original that a more absolute one had to be made?

The constant bickering and lack of efficiency. There's more about it in the October Tweaking Thread if you want to know more.

censorship is also a very big issue here because it relies heavily on what admin and mods decide is right and wrong.

That stuff has been delegated to the Council now, for example there's been a large update to the forum "Blacklist" being debated for the last week or so. That list will be the main foundation for all moderation actions aside from flaming.

If you want to discuss those further please make a thread on the matter

[Mister Snugles]

well I want to say my piece first, you have lost my support for taking this action Cruzas. Gerhart is a fair minded fellow and a awesome Lord Commander seeing him get cast out for something as benign, as speaking his mind, angers me to the extreme. It is my understanding that this sort of behavior is what drove you away from the site you initially where on, showing Gerhart the door for his supposed trolling, is just not cool. All I can say at this point is that we all have our B.S. meter and mine is about maxed.

[Sammael]

That stuff has been delegated to the Council now, for example there's been a large update to the forum "Blacklist" being debated for the last week or so. That list will be the main foundation for all moderation actions aside from flaming.

If you want to discuss those further please make a thread on the matter

Honestly, a proper Moderation team should be bored... Hear me out here. Real mod teams, and we're talking Bolter & Chainsword, Dakka Dakka, Advanced Tau Tactica, etc. don't do much warning, etc. look at it properly, the one thing NO MODS EVER DO HERE is MOVE THREADS TO THE CORRECT PLACES why? because they're too busy being the 'bleeding heart'/moral police of everyone's soul. Notice how your competition, and that's what it is like it or not, has a much more effective method of dealing with such things. Just a casual glance at those sites will show you a much more effective method of moderation. I feel the main thing most mods should say is 'Oh, good, having read that thread there is no porn on it, and everything seems to be going ok, I'll leave now, maybe even post.' If you're going to censor words such a 'R'ape', 'D'ouche', and more (Those Tau septs are some of the rarer ones) then you must take a blanket approach, you can;t not then have 'Fuck' 'Shit' etc. free, this shows one's own personal bias, and we know it is your own moral code here, do not pretend otherwise. The trouble is, once you start projecting this on to others, you have blown your objectivity and lose your credibility.

The argument that there are young children here is not an adequate defense, due to my above statements. Everyone here, INCLUDING THE F'RIGGING 13/14 YEAR OLDS has used at least one F-BOMB.

Please also note I am not rising to JC and/or Metal Head, who's posts could be construed as baiting/flaming I therefore expect warnings to be given to them, and myself, for this post. You see the problem? once you make one rule, you must blanket it for everyone, or become a massive D'ouchebag.

[fade]

I know I have no right to say any ting about this but base on everything said here gerhart kept on stepping out of bound of the rules and some knew this was going to happen to him

Why do he do this? For fun and trolling? The fact he thought he was a special case about not being banned since he was one of the founder, this I do not know but base on what cru is saying,he should have some sort of punishment but being ban permanently does seems a bit harsh, but maybe for a few weeks maybe for he must understand what he is doing and second chances should not be mess with (dern how ever is a different case, but forget about him), I believe everything is a different case, so if he was flaming, time to mature or this has no place for him

Just pure raging does not solve anything, either try and solve the problem calmly or move on

[SpecSlaughter22]

ywth was so broken with the original that a more absolute one had to be made?

The constant bickering and lack of efficiency. There's more about it in the October Tweaking Thread if you want to know more.

censorship is also a very big issue here because it relies heavily on what admin and mods decide is right and wrong.

That stuff has been delegated to the Council now, for example there's been a large update to the forum "Blacklist" being debated for the last week or so. That list will be the main foundation for all moderation actions aside from flaming.

If you want to discuss those further please make a thread on the matter

im sure everything ive said pertains to whats going on in this thread yet whats the point of debating if others are making the decisions. i guess your right though its alot easier to make decisions when everyone agrees with you. im just throwing out my opinion on this matter.