35 replies to this topic

[Spinysnafu]

Bored now.

"Plz giv me my warnin" Nah - do it yourself. Sammael's reported a couple of hundred posts, ask him to do it.

All of you - If you don't like it here then Plz use the deactivate account feature in your user CP. You do have that choice.

Thanks.

Oh - You're not going to do that because you like trollin' too much, amazing, well fine and dandy. When I eventually have to warn you after no end of prevarication then don't complain

Now "Plz giv me my warnin".

Honestly...

[Brother White]

Bored now.

"Plz giv me my warnin" Nah - do it yourself. Sammael's reported a couple of hundred posts, ask him to do it.

All of you - If you don't like it here then Plz use the deactivate account feature in your user CP. You do have that choice.

Thanks.

Oh - You're not going to do that because you like trollin' too much, amazing, well fine and dandy. When I eventually have to warn you after no end of prevarication then don't complain

Now "Plz giv me my warnin".

Honestly...

I just enjoy getting warned from a guy getting butthurt. He was my "brother" now he is not. And no I won't deactivate my account.

Sent from the Melta practice chambers of the Righteous Truth

[Spinysnafu]

Fair enough..

[Simonbarsinistr]

Definitely a fine line to discipline. That's just why I feel the direct and open option is best. It wouldn't put a group of users in a position to be seen as villains. It would be do A, then receive B. If a moderator was exercising a vendetta, it hopefully would also be obvious, and community disapproval would hopefully curb that.

As Cru said, SM is stagnating, other games have different communities. We need to preserve what we have, and not assume we can simply regrow it. And for me, a community with too tight of a leash on its users is also unattractive. More fine line and personal opinion, though.

[Hudson]

Wow as always Batman i totally agree with EVERYTHING you said!!!

If everything on this site was handled objectively like that the enofrocing of rules would be much easier.

As I believe i am now the only voice of reason left from the CF's here let me try and make my point.

I dont care that Gerhart was banned. I love Caz and I call him a friend ( which I dont have many) but this out burst wasnt because Caz was banned this is the boiling point of the whole reason Caz started trolling in the first place. I and many others feel there is and are double standards the way somethings are handled here.

For me it all start back with the case of CF vs Dante. And still to this day to me it looked like the friend card out ruled the rules. IMO. Things after that added up and did we or I handle these things in the best way? no. We/ I trolled why because it is a game and the internet and it is/was fun/funny to me. I dont have countless hours to invest into a game or the forums. I dont have countless hours to type well thought out posts ( thinking hurts). I thought my humor and trolling would point out the BS. I thought that the leaders of this community if true leaders or admins could leave there feelings at the door and rule with no bias.. Just like batman can and does. I understand that most cant but even I can. even when i post something and i recieve a warning or a pm or whatever I fully understand why and where it is coming from. for example one of the threads in the PUBLIC CF forum had an admin mod it. Do I agree with the reason why it was modded NO but I also dont agree with some of my member saying to that mod this is our place stay out. That area is still PUBLIC forum so all rules still apply. This is an example of me seeing past my chapter and veiwing a subject from both sides. IMO both sides were wrong. In the end the thread was modded the correct way and we moved on.
Although Nox's post in this thread is a great example here is another
One example of a double standard or something that adds fuel to a trolls fire here is the POST and LOCK power. If a thread is out of line just lock it. IMO typing out a page long reply to the thread and then locking it is just a form of trolling or flaming as now the admin or mod states their opinion and doesnt let the people invested in the thread to have a voice or defend their actions.

A solution that a great clan i used to be a part of once had for some of the issues you have here is open staff meetings. the 1st sunday every month the council members would get on teamspeak and cover issues like these in a organized open forum. sensitive items such as $$ and security were still reviewed behind closed doors but the meeeting allowed members to have a transparent veiw of what was going on behind the scenes. I know XBl has limits and I can go into deeper detail via voice and typing takes to long.

My last point is this : the thread that is now 30 some pages long i feel is great. most people had fun with it and can walk away feeling good I like trolling and flames as long as there is no dirty name calling. What i dont like are certain posts with in this thread where people are trying to talk real issues out and people jump in and troll and flame or call people names. as that will derail an impactful thread quickly ( way to go Spiny, Lothair and White )

[JACCX023]

I salute you my lord well danm said your wisdom and the power of your words are indeed worthy of recognition you do your status as council member and chapter master proud

To the other things you said if any one dares to harm you they will have to face my wrath that is bigger than a freaking angry marine on roids! (danm you batman! im proud to be under your command sir.....ohh something else i havent told you in a while brother..........WHY SO SERIOUS?!)

[Hudson]

A real life example of the post and lock can be found here.


https://www.gothicwa...tid=7944&page=5


IMO the reply by the admin is trolling. Not saying what he said is wrong as i am sure most are thinking it. IMO i feel if the locking admin was to post anything it should be the reason why and that is it. for example : Derailed Locked


or maybe Trolling Locked.





I hope people understand the point I am trying to make

[Kokokacho]

Thank you Batman, and thank you Hudson, and many others who have posted constructively in this thread. It's good to see some level-headed discussion and suggestions. As Batman pointed out, the system is not perfect, but it can be improved. This is the type of discussion that leads to improvement.

I think the Teamspeak discussions are a great idea. One of the biggest problems with reading posts is that you can't read tone of voice, and as a result of that you often interpret the other persons intent based on whatever opinion you yourself have formed of the individual. This leads to constant misunderstandings on the forums, wether or not they are ever even recognised as misunderstandings. Breakdowns in communication are responsible for alot of problems I've witnessed in real life, and the interwebz are no better.

This is where I think the trolling went wrong. While you had good intentions behind it, it was probably percieved as malicious by alot of people who saw it, and it wasn't taken seriously because they just thought you were trying to be a jerk. And thats the variety of trolling that people don't like to have to deal with or even see. Thats why I think the mods are so quick to clamp down on trolling and flaming posts, because they can spiral out of control as we saw happen in the recent threads (which I now refer to as the Trollympics ). Thats what can happen when those kinds of posts aren't dealt with. And to prove my point in an unfortunate way, AchillesFTW left the site after seeing that happen.

I personally found them highly entertaining, despite being very out of line. But I would not want to log on to the site every day and see that kind of thing, and I can easily find entertainment elsewhere.
Again, the fine line thing comes up, between fun trolling and malicious trolling, and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

I'm glad we are getting down to some productive discussion, and I'm sad that it took the recent boiling over of trolling and the banning of Gerhart to get to this point. But really, I don't think the banning is a huge deal when I think about it. Gerhart is still going to go to work like always tomorrow, and when he has some free time at home he's going to log on Xbox Live and play some games with the same friends he has always enjoyed playing with.

[Simonbarsinistr]

Good post by Hudson to point out what some feel the double standard is, and one reason I would like to see the warning and lock system handled more systematically. Hudsons right in that a thread gone awry should end with; derailed-locked, and a problem causer would have a post saying; username warned-trolling, or username banned-warnings exceeded. Take your opinions and emotion out of the equation.

I wish we'd been more on top of things to provide proof, but another double standard we hint at, but I'll just say it, is Rom. Rom trolls, baits, and flames as much as the most trolly Crimson troll. A fact that we've always enjoyed and had fun with. He can dish it out and take it in stride. When he succeeded at recruiting his admittedly awesome Dark Angels, he also enjoyed trolling the public areas of chapters he got players from and baiting them by mentioning it.

Now in our view, that's fine. We can banter with him and troll back. But by your standard, he should be temp banned at least. Instead he's got a low warning level.

[Lord Ariok]

i know this is not much of a post but i would like to say thanks to batman for his very detailed explanation of how this site works and reminding everyone that council is their to help and does not deserved to be attacked for protecting the people who love this community

[Batman2213]

Good post by Hudson to point out what some feel the double standard is, and one reason I would like to see the warning and lock system handled more systematically. Hudsons right in that a thread gone awry should end with; derailed-locked, and a problem causer would have a post saying; username warned-trolling, or username banned-warnings exceeded. Take your opinions and emotion out of the equation.

I wish we'd been more on top of things to provide proof, but another double standard we hint at, but I'll just say it, is Rom. Rom trolls, baits, and flames as much as the most trolly Crimson troll. A fact that we've always enjoyed and had fun with. He can dish it out and take it in stride. When he succeeded at recruiting his admittedly awesome Dark Angels, he also enjoyed trolling the public areas of chapters he got players from and baiting them by mentioning it.

Now in our view, that's fine. We can banter with him and troll back. But by your standard, he should be temp banned at least. Instead he's got a low warning level.

I'd like to address this claim of double-standard. No promises that you will be satisfied with my answer, but I'll do my best, because this does deserve a response.

During the debate about whether or not Gerhart should be banned, I specifically mentioned that I felt Rom's actions warranted similar consideration, because at the time it appeared they were committing equal offense. In other words, I felt we could not continue to discuss banning Gerhart if we were not prepared to discuss similar repercussions for Rom. I'm not saying that I'm the ONLY person who felt this way, but I believe I was the first to voice this point of view when the council was in session.

The council did debate this point, and ultimately decided that Rom's activity was insufficent to warrant banning, because both parties were acting in response to the flaming/baiting/trolling the other person was doing. By the same token, although Gerhart's activities in this regard were VERY public and even harmful (as were Rom's), those activities alone would not be enough to ban him either... not permanently anyway.

What tipped the scales against Gerhart and ONLY Gerhart was other activities that Rom played no part in: The accusation of cheating against the Night Lords during the July tournament (deemed inappropriate, but not a bannable offense by itself). The way he refused to respond to any attempts by staff or other faction leaders to engage him diplomatically (his "F** it I do what I want attitude/replies)... etc. NONE of these things warranted banning in and of themselves, but the sum of his ongoing behavior led the council to the decision that he no longer cared for the well-being of the community outside his chapter, that his actions and attitudes were actually causing damage to the community, and that he had no intention of scaling back or changing, regardless of anyone's attempts to negotiate with him.

Rom was far more responsive to the staff's attempts to put the "ego war" to rest, or so they indicated during our debate. I am not a staff member, so I am forced to accept their word on that. By extension, I ask you to accept mine. The consequences may not have been the same for both of these leaders, but that was because their actions were not equal, not because of a double-standard.



Edit: I'd also like to say that the council never intended to slap the Crimson Fists in the face by announcing Gerhart's ban right after your chapter's anniversary. It could be argued that the timing is MY fault, since I caused a delay when I asked that the council give equal consideration to banning Rom. Sorry about that guys.

[Mister Snugles]

Ive always respected you batman and when you put things in perspective like that it really makes it hard to stay angry, I am writing this to let you know what I think is wrong with the community(this is strictly my opinion and does not reflect my chapters thoughts) , but what I see is a community that cannot exist without finding someone to ostracize every few months. I see a group that is talking about the greater good of the community yet the same group is often responsible for causing damage to the community, I see a system that is promoting Lackeys and people ill suited for authority, I see that no one is truly safe to express themselves here or to even relax and play a few games without there being freaking Drama, so Im done with GW.
Yes, I know it is a lot of work to keep a ton of people happy, and to keep a site running smoothly. I know Cru and the mods are working like dogs, for our entertainment, but the rules of the site have killed it for me. I enjoyed Thugrens RP and the SM matches, but I feel they are not enough for me to want to participate on this site. Of course I will still be on Xbox live, and my clans site.
The fact of the matter is the community banned my chapters leader from this site (and felt justified to do so pfft), while there are many other people who flame troll and errantly act like complete douche bags (and yes the CF are well know for this sort of behavior, but you know we aren't the only ones ) as to what future rules should be for the site I don't care, because Im gone I will no longer continue to troll here.
Ive decided that enough is enough, Im not really angry anymore about what happened, more like Im disappointed by the way this was handled. I may have over reacted but also I feel I was justified to be angry I really am done with this community after this post Im going to close my account on gothic wars, because I feel that this site is no longer fun. I will leave it up to my battle brothers to set up matches and to conduct themselves honorably, but I myself refuse to be forced to lower my head or to soften my voice, I will be heard. I do not regret having trolled and flamed because words were all I had to fight with, to anyone who reads this Im not sorry for my actions, and if they are viewed as childish or immature, you can keep that opinion to yourself.(because anyone who plays games is immature by default)
Later y'all.

[Batman2213]

Good luck Snugles, hopefully we can beat the crap out of each other (or team up on some Randoms ) again in the future. (In-Game of course!)

[Simonbarsinistr]

Thank you again Batman for shedding some light on the subject. It's good to know that at least those activities were brought up. I'm hoping that in the future your level headed demeanor and objectiveness becomes the norm. Rom being more responsive and working with the mods does help explain things, but his warning level that Gerhart could see up until he was banned was very low for someone being considered for possible ban themselves. Either way, glad it wasn't just glossed over entirely.

In my idea of a system, warnings would be given out equally for equal offenses, and once the magic number of warnings was reached, it would be a temp ban. Being able or willing to talk your way out of it wouldn't factor in.

[Hudson]

thanks for that info and post Batman.

But like i was trying to point out some of the reason Caz may have even trolled leading to the ban was the feeling of double standard.

I am not trying to argue if the ban was right or wrong. I am trying to point out what I think are flaws in the system that may have created actions to lead to someone having to be banned

[JC 042]

But like i was trying to point out some of the reason Caz may have even trolled leading to the ban was the feeling of double standard.

I know Gerhart tried to suggest many things to improve the site as well as the way its run. I’m sure he would of made this site much greater with his ideas and suggestions.

But unfortunately it was the way he put those views across that got him banned, the correct way to have done it was to post it clearly and with a level head in a ticket via the support centre. If he hadn’t had post it out in public where everyone would interpret how he was saying it (which was in a rant) where it would later derail and degrade into trolling, then I’m sure his views would of been implemented into the site without any of the unnecessary turmoil it instead caused.

I’m sad that he had to be banned but if he stayed then this place would of turned into a flame forum which I’m sure he never wanted it to be when he was there during its founding

And also Batman has yet again proven his +100 Speech Craft